Below is the second part of the interview.
Ziabari: And back to Armenia-Azerbaijan tensions – do you agree with the interpretation that there is a religious element to the conflict going on between Armenia and Azerbaijan? The same way Armenia has deplored Azerbaijan’s desecration of churches in the Republic of Artsakh, the President of Azerbaijan has also complained that Armenia has destroyed at least “70 mosques” in the disputed territories.
In describing what’s going on in Syria and Afghanistan, or broaching the idea that Turkey has imported mercenaries from Syria to fight for Azerbaijan, you’ve on several occasions used the term “Islamic terrorism.” Are you not concerned that these measures and rhetoric may widen the rifts between Armenia and the Muslim world and alienate Armenia’s small Muslim community?
Sarkissian: I think first of all, using the term “Islamist terrorist” by Armenian officials is in many cases just reflecting the reality. Terrorists are terrorists, be that from this or that religion; but these ones come from the Syrian war, and Turkey brought them from Syria. And this is more about their motivation rather than Armenia’s approach. These are guys motivated by religion or they are in a religious war, because they are paid, because they are mercenaries.
I don’t agree at all that this war or conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh had ever a religious aspect. First of all, there are only a few mosques there; there are a lot of Armenian churches. But then, I personally had encouraged the complete renovation of a mosque in Shushi, which was finalized by two Armenians and one Muslim guy.
It was fully renovated. I visited there; they had specialists, architects and religious people advising what to do. It’s a beautiful mosque. And if the Azeris recover even one church, please send me the photo.
This is not a religious war. Seventy mosques were destroyed? I don’t know – I hear from you about it. You should be very specific there. In the case of Armenian churches, they are very specific; they are where they are; they are where they have been for hundreds or thousands of years.
And we know exactly which one is destroyed. Unfortunately, we have become professional in registering the destruction of Armenian churches, heritage and culture, first of all, in the Ottoman Empire, in Turkey. There are hundreds of old churches that were converted into mosques, and there’s a lot of historic evidence.
And if you want to compare the attitudes, is there any chance that the Armenians can say or complain that there are Armenian churches destroyed on the territory of Iran? Have you heard about that? No, I haven’t heard it, either. And in fact, during history, regimes changed in Iran, but with all regimes, Armenian communities in Iran were basically flourishing, and in fact, the Islamic Republic of Iran has spent money on the renovation of Armenian churches.
And I have examples of that. Well, I’ve been in Tehran a couple of times before becoming president.
In the center of Tehran, there’s a huge territory called Ararat club. When you go there, it’s like you’re in Armenia. Everything: the basketball pitch, the football, the Armenian girls and boys together. There is a huge tolerance by the leadership of the Islamic Republic towards the Armenian culture. There are a lot of Armenian churches in Iran everywhere. I’m not speaking only about Isfahan and Rasht.
Why don’t we complain about Iran destroying the Armenian culture? Because it doesn’t. In fact, it’s supporting, being an Islamic Republic while Turkey is not an Islamic republic, even Azerbaijan has not declared that they are an Islamic republic.
But the Islamic Republic of Iran is tolerant towards our culture, our religion, our beliefs. If anyone speaks about destruction, they should look at the example of Iran. This war was not religious and it could not be religious. Armenia has fantastic relations with a lot of countries that are Islamic states or where the majority of the population are Muslims.
Ziabari: I just want to jump quickly with a follow-up. You said that the crisis in Syria and the terrorism that thrived and flourished from there was driven by religion. Can it be similarly said that, for example, we have Jewish terrorism embodied by what the Israeli state unleashes on the Palestinians? Can we ever use the term Christian terrorism to refer to the Ku Klux Klan? We have never used such denominations.
Sarkissian: Well, I think you really jumped. I have a term saying that this world has become quantum; so, you can jump from one place to another and you don’t go logically with the trace. But you had a complete quantum question and a question that probably will need a couple of hours to answer. Let me not answer that question.
What I said in the case of Syria – even Iran has recognized that there are a lot of groups in Syria which, not me, but others were calling Islamic terrorists. What Turkey has done, is to bring mercenaries. People who are killing for money, can be Christians, Muslims or Buddhists, or any other religion.
That doesn’t matter, because whatever they are doing is wrong. Killing people because they are different, killing people for money, is not acceptable neither by Christianity nor by Islam.
I have read the Quran several times and I haven’t found anything saying that you should kill for money those who are different. I haven’t seen such a thing. Maybe you have seen; you can show it to me if you know.
Ziabari: That’s right.
Sarkissian: So, respecting other people’s religion and culture is very important for me.
Ziabari: And again on foreign policy; I understand that you’ve known President Joe Biden of the United States for quite a while and that the US President, in April this year, recognized the 1915 Armenian Genocide in a departure from the stance of many former US presidents who tip-toed on this recognition.
Do you expect bilateral relations with Washington to transition to a new level? Are there new developments in Yerevan-Washington ties to look out for?
Sarkissian: I think the recognition of the Armenian Genocide is very important for my nation and the international community. I don’t need to explain why. It is important for them to recognize that something wrong happened – that something wrong has happened even to grandfathers and grandmothers of those people who are now citizens of France, Russia, the United States of America, Argentina, Lebanon, etc.
If you don’t recognize a genocide, genocides will continue. How can one say that there was no genocide in Rwanda? You say that there was a genocide and then after that you’ll say how you can just live with that or change the consequences of that.
I am very happy to hear that Rwanda is a very active and a very successful state now. They are modern, they have invested in IT, and that’s fantastic because they have gone through the hell, as well. The same has happened to Armenians.
A big number of countries have recognized the Armenian Genocide. The United States and the president of the United States recognizing the genocide are taking an important step, but is that historic justice?
I think the main topic of our discussion today is about historic justice; it’s emotional. It’s important for Armenians in America, for Armenians worldwide, but I think it’s also important for Americans as well. They are recognizing something that was wrong. By recognizing something that’s wrong, you are at least trying to prevent the next wrong thing from happening.
As to US-Armenia relations, be it diplomatic, political and others, you should look not only on the historic aspect – but in the sort of modern pragmatic aspect of realpolitik. And in the realpolitik, there’s the process of redesigning the Caucasus, and maybe there’ll be a process of redesigning Central Asia.
This Caspian region is not the same as it was 30 years ago or 25 years ago. For Armenia, there was a chance then to be a part of redesigning the Caucasus in a different way.
Now, we have a situation when Azerbaijan is victorious. Will they be smart enough to convert their victory into a stable peace? When you are the victorious side, you have the advantage, and you can also do compromises because you have the victory. But then you have to be wise enough to understand that by doing compromises, when you are victorious, you can create relations that will last much longer.
We are living, as I said, in a quantum world and things change very fast in a way that one could not expect. We have neighbors like Turkey and it is difficult to predict what their next move will be.
Ziabari: Let’s also touch upon the state of Iran-Armenia relations. You have certainly heard about the recent border tensions between Iran and Azerbaijan. The government in Baku has been charging Iranian trucks and fuel trailers entering Armenia through the Goris-Kapan road substantial fees, effectively cutting Iran off from Armenia.
First, do you believe trade relations with Iran will be affected negatively as a result of Azerbaijan’s new plans? And what’s your assessment of the direction of Iran-Armenia relations, in political, economic, financial, scientific and cultural terms?
Sarkissian: Well, I don’t have to prove that relations between Armenia and Iran have a vital value and interest for Armenia. Iran has been our trusted neighbor for many years. Even a lot of our friends in the west always accept that they can have their differences and tensions with Iran, but Iran-Armenia relations are developed from a different dimension.
It is very important that our relations are deep, effective, be that trade or economic relations or indeed political and cultural relations. History shows that we can trust Iran and we can have long-lasting relations, both as a state and a nation.
I have already touched upon my visit to Tehran. What I saw there is a country with young and vibrant youth and students, very much interested in what’s happening in the world. After being in Isfahan and seeing the Armenian church, the library and how much the Iranian government has supported maintaining and keeping that heritage, I think that helps us to build the relations between Iran and Armenia on a positive note.
We have differences; Iran’s relations with other states are as complex as our relations with other ...
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